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Author Topic: Hi to all tankers. We need to make some changes !  (Read 7134 times)
Canthar
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« on: July 04, 2007, 12:17:16 pm »

Hi guys, this post is more like a suggestion, its up to u if u want to improve ur avoidance rating or not. But consider that u will do a favour to all raid mebers if u stay alive (wipes, repairs, wastage of time and so on)

So please consider this and take some action about it.

As a tanker u need to avoid / block alot of hits from mobs / bosses, u do that by having alot of defense rating (dodge, parry, miss and block).
Tankers i spotted alot of str gems in ur sockets. I'm not saying that's not good but str gives u block chance and nothing more. Ofc u gain 2AP per 1 point of str (= about 0.14 dps per str) but tanking its not about dps'ing.

And why block chance is not good ?
Bcs if u block u get hit anyway. So lets think about Curators or Prince 4-5k hits on plate (12-13k armor on a prot warrior). 5k hit its alot so that block (200-300 block value) or alot of sta doesnt help u much.
Like i said before, to alot of ppl, i prefer to avoid that 5k hit on me. Regarding this u have another choice and ofc that is: dodge, parry and miss chance (each point of +defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be missed, to parry, to dodge, and to block). So instead of str gems ill chose dodge gems or agility gems (every 18.9 points of dodge rating adds +1% to your dodge chance and 24 points of agi adds 1% dodge rating).

So guys pls take notice and do something about it (its no need to get rare gems on blue items, it doesnt worth).

The most important green gems for tanking are listed below:
Thick Golden Draenite - Fleshlight
Enduring Deep Peridot - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23105
Delicate Blood Garnet - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23097
Shifting Shadow Draenite - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23110
Solid Azure Moonstone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23118

The most important rare gems for tanking are listed below:
Enduring Talasite - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24062
Solid Star of Elune - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24033
Subtle Living Ruby - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24032
Thick Dawnstone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24052

Pls guys, think about avoidance first, u will live more (if u dont get hit u wont die)... healers have chances to land a heal on u.
So try to pass 18% dodge, 18% parry and 20-21% block and u will se that a 70 elite mob will not hit u more then 40-50%. A 73 elite mob will not hit u more then 50-60% (and that will happen if u allways when u have the chance pop up ur imp shield block).

Another standpoint that i want to mention is tanker talent build.
Ill post here 2 best tanking talents build:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=TVZVZbEtsIMdfcst
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=TV0cZVZbEtohGdfcst

Deflection, Improved Defensive Stance are a must.
Anyway there are alot of tanking guides that u must read for your own knowledge.

Thank u for your patient and be rdy for next encounter.   Wink
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 12:19:33 pm by Canthar » Logged

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Eosforos
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2007, 11:59:34 pm »

thanks mate,really important staff.
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Poltergeist
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 02:10:41 am »

Smiley Hello Tanks


I have to admitt, my view on tanks and gearing has always been stamina+armour. While our beloved MT like Def rating.
I happened stumble over this article. Lets debate this topic Smiley



The Great Debate
So, what to do? We've had a lot of heated debate on this subject on the forums, and I think a lot of misunderstanding of positions on both sides. I believe the problem we are seeing in these discussions is one of extremes. Nobody is advocating stacking avoidance or mitigation to the exclusion of the other. You can't function without both; you can't not have both! 490 defense and 5/5 deflection guarantees that you'll have over 30% dodge/parry/miss. With basic heroic/5man gear and no gems or enchants, you're sitting at something like 11k health, 12k armour, and probably 35% avoidance. If you have Karazhan gear, again without gems or enchants, maybe 12k/13k/38%. This is your starting point.

What I (and many others) am saying is that once you're there, you have enough avoidance. There is no need to go out of your way to get more. It's time to focus on armour and stamina. The differential in avoidance between straight 490D and 40 extra dodge rating, and 505D and 80 extra dodge rating is about 4%. 1 time in 25, you will get a timely avoid to extend your shield block that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten. 4% higher chance to avoid something that you would not have otherwise. This is not a huge difference here, the difference is not 0-26% dodge. It's 22-26%. If you stack more avoidance than that, you maybe make it 8%, or one in 12 on shield block. But it's still a random variable. And you keep your health lower because of it.

The experience that a majority of people are drawing on is Karazhan and heroics. In these places, your healers can use reactive healing for 99% of the content. This means that if you dodge an attack, they don't need to heal just yet. If you dodge 3 in a row, great! Mana efficiency increases with your avoidance, and that's great since the number of healers is limited. So far as most people can see this makes avoidance very desirable, and in this context it is. If your tanking game is Karazhan and Heroics then avoidance is your friend (though Nightbane is a good fight for high stamina/armour due to his hard hits).

However, because of the game mechanics, Stamina and armour is the only real choice - when you're looking past Karazhan. Why? Because of healing and rage.

Most people don't look at the bigger picture of the raid's mechanics. Let's move into Gruul's Lair now. High King Maulgar hits like a truck in autoattack, and adds three special attacks into the mix (your healers consider the Whirlwind that pulses for 6000-ish damage each to be time for a breather here.) Gruul starts out hitting hard, and only gets harder as the Grows stack. Reactive healing is no longer an option now. If healers try to heal in reaction to the damage the tank takes, or doesn't take, then the tank is going to die. It really is as simple as that. The healers must be healing in anticipation of the damage coming in, in terms of keeping average healing per second higher than average damage per second. There is no break, and no point where you are not healing. You can interrupt a heal sometimes when the tank suddenly pops to full, but even that is a gamble against what the next hits are going to be. At this point, excess avoidance is a wasted thing, because all it means is that you got overhealed. Avoidance does not increase your healers' mana efficiency here. They are almost always casting those heals regardless of whether you avoid or not. If they don't, you die. This only gets more and more true as you move past Gruul to Magtheridon (10k cleaves and 7k normal hits!) and beyond.

This is where stamina and armour stacking come in. We've all read armour-stamina equivalence by now. Ciderhelm made it a hot topic on the warrior forums not long ago, it's been on this site since day one, and to be perfectly candid this is how it has always been even in BWL and Naxx before the xpac - this is nothing new. In this situation, your armour and health create a consistent damage stream that is far less subject to spikes and dips. This has three effects:

When the burst damage comes, avoidance leaves it to chance whether you will dodge one and be okay. Combined high stamina and mitigation makes it a constant to absorb the damage and leave enough time for the heals to come. Every extra hitpoint and every bit more mitigation combines and amplifies to make you that much harder to kill, and does it in a consistent fashion. There are fewer streaks where nothing happens to your health at all, and fewer streaks where you go down super fast. Everything is steady and predictable. There is enough time to heal, and you win.

Then there is rage. Avoidance means less rage. Less rage means less threat generated, and more conservation needed to do everything you need to do, like put shield block up. Less threat means longer fights, and the chance of someone pulling aggro is that bit higher. Less rage can mean you sit there hoping that you take a hit after the fourth dodge, so that you have enough rage to put shield block up! It's a trite old saying, but it is true: if you can't spend all your rage, even on a raid boss, you are doing something wrong. Avoidance limits your performance. This is my personal number one reason for disliking avoidance. I'm always looking for rage. If you're sitting there thinking "I always have enough rage, and I never lose aggro". I invite you to go find a well geared DPS and have them light it up to 1000+ threat per second while you're tanking. You need to understand how much they hold back normally. To be fair, on some fights this is not as much of an issue, but on others it's painfully evident.

If by adding armour and health you can make that damage stream consistent enough, lower the magnitude of the incoming damage per second, and increase your overall time to live from full to zero, then your heal team can start to use more long cast heals and fewer short cast heals. Not to mention that bigger health pool makes overheals that much less likely. This is what creates mana efficiency. This is the least of the effects since healer mana isn't usually an issue anyway, but given the changes constantly coming it may become more important (and it may free a healer to do something else anyway.)

The key concept here is this: You aren't trying to take less damage; you are trying to increase the amount of damage you can take. Once you wrap your head around that, it all makes sense. This is why you don't care so much about avoidance in the context of the 25 man raid boss, which is a much different game than Karazhan. If you're tanking Karazhan and heroics, knock yourself out with avoidance. However, it's a safe bet to say that the further into the endgame you go, you will ultimately find you want to choose gear with the best combination of high armour and high stamina. Get battlescar instead of elusion (and get some avoidance anyway!) Use maiden gloves. Socket with Solid Star of Elune (don't be cheap, it's imaginary money in a video game!) and enchant for stamina. Take an increase in the constant buffer instead of a reduction of the random. You'll have plenty of avoidance. Add to that the extra armour and health, and it makes your healers' lives less stressful.
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Canthar
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 11:48:16 am »

Yes u have a point here, but... its about a mixture of figures that combine together make a whole.

when a tank start karazhan he must have at least 18% dodge, 18% parry and 20-21% block chance rating... so a amount of 56% avoidance chance.

about the gruul and 25 mans raids... for alot of times i didnt get healed bcs of not my problem reasones Smiley
and my avoidance rating saved me and the group. u cant be healed all time in gruul (ppl needs to run, move etc). anyway u know what im talking about.

about to much avoidance = no rage, u are right but that is only for kara. gruul hit me like more then 40% but less then 50%... the real problem is to have heal after the shatter comes (thats the critical point of the fight.. with all my hp i cant survive with no heals)

now... i rly dont think that those gems will change my chance to survive in a positive way (800-1k hp?). if i dont have the right amount of avoidanve ill get hit more often ant therefore much hard to be healed. i did change my gems and made a mixture of def+sta. and im shure all of us have stuck in the head the words "im out of mana".

blizz didnt make the gem color thing just by mistake or for fun. they have a team that calculates the wow mechanics (so from those gems i have with 2% more dodge and 2% more parry, like 2% more miss chance and 2% more block = so ~ 8% avoidance, maybe more). and im shure alot of tanks dont have a clue about 102,4% combat table, so maybe thats why they use only blue gems allways (its the easy way to fill a socket whitout thinking... they do so bcs they saw on another warrior)

from my opinion its the same thing.

if i have alot of avoidance i dont get hit much and healers can focus on event tactic so they dont die.

with more sta i will get the hits for shure so i need to be healed all time by all means.
atm i have 18,300 hp buffed, so 19k hp will not make the diference for shure.

our gruul problem is that after the shutter i dont get healed, and there allways must be someone near, me so i get at least 5k dmg from the shatter. after 5k shatter dmg ill get hit for another 6-7k after lets say 10 grows, so if i dont get at least 2-3k heal ill die for shure (i cant drink after each shatter).

another very important thing is the armor... more armor i get with more less ill get hit... 1 point of armor = 1 point of sta.
a warrior with no avoidanve its not a tank, hes a tombstone. i saw a kara / gruul build warriors with 38% avoidance thats just lame.

anyway out there are alot of guides and documentation about wow mechanics and playing style. yes after kara raid a tank needs alot of sta... but u cant just erase avoidance and get 1-1,3k sta instead Smiley
just bcs this, there exist mixture gems with def+sta or agi+sta or str+sta so the avoidance can make the diference in the first place.

now... i think after a tank get fully geared from kara hes rdy for maulgar / gruul encounter. from nightbane drops, chest / shield, i will have with 41 sta more so 410 hp... armor, block, def and so on.
but that is not only for tanks... is for all classes. if u get all kara gear for ur class gruul will be much easy for shure.
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